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Thread: 2.0T FSI vs TSI Info Thread

              
  1. #1
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    2.0T FSI vs TSI Info Thread

    I will try to combine everything I know and have read on the forums to make this a page for you guys to understand TSI vs FSI. It will be a lot of copying and pasting on my part, I'm sorry for that but the info is all already there. I'm just digging it up and putting it out there for you all.

    Some quotes from ARIN@APR about reasons why the TSI is superior to the older FSI


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arin@APR Click here to enlarge

    The FSI head does not flow as well as the TSI.
    The FSI is more susceptible to knock than the TSI.
    The FSI does not have as good of a fueling system as the TSI.
    The FSI has more internal losses compared to the TSI.

    The TSI is just better so it makes more power. We should expect that form a completely new engine from VW. That's how progress works. That's all.




    Here are some other TSI tech info: credit to my friend Virtualheretic


    DISCLAIMER: I am NOT an expert on all the information found in this post & thread. It has been put together by various contributors as a central source to answer the most basic of questions for current and prospective TSI VW/Audi owners.

    Right to the point: YES, there are 2 types of motors in the MKV body style VW cars as well as 2008+ Audi models. (confirmed that MKVI models have the same 2.0 TSI motor)

    FSI: found in 2006 and up to 2008 models, available in automatic, 6 SPD manual, and DSG.
    TSI: found in late 2008.5 and up models, available in automatic, 6 SPD manual, and DSG.

    Do I have an FSI or a TSI? POP YOUR HOOD AND READ THE BADGE!! Click here to enlarge

    Do I have a CBFA or CCTA? Look at you factory airbox; if the airbox has a 2nd hose coming out of the front of the airbox then your car has the CBFA version of the airbox as shown here:
    Click here to enlarge
    NOTE: the U.S. Spec TSI is NOT the 1.4L Turbo and Supercharged engine that is found in the UK; rather it is second generation, if you will, of the FSI. A 2L 16V direct injection engine - with an IHI Turbo.
    TSI motor (regardless of CBFA or CCTA):
    Displacement: 121 cu in (1984 cm3)
    Maximum Power: 200 hp (147 kW) at 5100 - 6000 rpm
    Maximum Torque: 206 lb ft (280 Nm) at 1700 - 5000 rpm
    Number of Valves Per Cylinder: 4
    Bore: 3.2 in (82.5 mm) & Stroke: 3.7 in (92.8 mm)
    Compression Ratio: 9.6 : 1
    Firing Order: 1-3-4-2
    Engine Weight: 317 lb (144 kg)
    Engine Management: Bosch MED 17.5
    Fuel Grade: 95/91 RON
    Exhaust Emission Standard: ULEV (CCTA) - SULEV (CBFA)
    Some major differences from the FSI to TSI include:
    -- chain timing vs belt as seen in the FSI
    -- different fuel/engine management system
    -- components in the intake system (as defined above)
    -- oil filter and oil dipstick relocated
    -- improved PCV system (proved to be problematic in the FSI)
    -- compression ratio lowered to 9.6:1
    -- more balanced cam shafts in the center of the block on both sides
    -- down pipe
    -- better emissions (by U.S. standards and regulation)
    -- more 02 sensors on exhaust system
    originally posted by Arin@APR

    There are several hardware differences between the different versions. The main changes between the US versions is simply Emissions. US vs ROW also has emissions changes and some other hardware changes for more "headroom" for the higher output "b" version.
    CCTA = US Hardware - 200 HP
    CBFA = US Hardware, High Emissions - 200 HP
    CCZA = ROW Hardware, 200 HP
    CCZB = ROW Hardware, 210 HP

    US MK5/MK6 2.0 TSI Engine
    CCTA
    CBFA
    CCT and CBF denote the engine's mechanical structure. IE, secondary injection (CBF) vs non secondary injection (CCT). A, the 4th letter, denotes the power output for the calibration, ie both rated in the us for 207ft-lb/200hp.

    ROW MK6 and A3 2.0 TSI Engines
    CCZA - A3
    CCZB - MK6CCZ denotes the european mechanical structure. A denotes the 200HP calibration. B denotes the 210HP calibration.


    originally posted by xgtiride

    ...The fuel system is now run off of a new lobe of its own to reduce wear, which was a problem with some of the earlier 2.0t engines (from the tech's mouth). It is now also run off of the exhaust cam and no longer the intake cam. The tech noted that the injectors must overcome the combustion pressure of the engine to even force fuel directly, causing them to have operation pressures upwards of 1400 psi.....the intake runners have a plate splitting them into two pathways. In the intake manifold exists individual butterfly valve like air flow splitters that direct the airflow into only half of the intake runners while cruising or coasting, thus increasing gas mileage. The airflow is directed into both paths when the engine is under load to increase air flow and power. Other notes: The intake is not part of the engine cover, and the sound pipe can easily be removed...


    originally posted by radgolf

    ...PZEV and SULEV are basically the same emissions rating, but PZEVs have a 15year/150000mi warranty and zero evaporative emissions.
    http://localdc.com/pzev.htm

    Downpipes: FSI applications can be modified to fit TSI cars depending on what engine code you are (CBFA vs CCTA). The mating flanges are slightly different (will require modification) as there is an extra 02 sensor in the stock CBFA setup. (consult your preferred dealer as to what software would clear a downpipe CEL). TSI specific Downpipes are available from various companies, too. Catbacks systems remain universal from FSI to TSI.

    Suspension: overall components remain the same. Maybe a few aesthetic parts here and there like an extra rubber mount or bushing. 2008.5+ GTI's also appear to have a lower suspension from the factory compared to 2006-2007 models, but only by a little. Front and Rear sway bars are the same.

    Intercoolers: (All of the available FSI intercoolers will properly mount up to the TSI engine)
    BSH, APR, Eurojet, and Audi S3 (yes, it's compatible with some self fabrication). Discharge or turbo outlet pipes are available by AWE, Neuspeed, BSH,

    Catch Cans:
    BSH Vent to Atmosphere Race can
    BSH Recirculation Catch Can
    42D Design
    Forge (the Forge Catchcan is more of a PCV upgrade than just a catch can; it reroutes all of the PCV gases through one line)

    Popular abbreviations and acronyms associated with VW/AUDI:
    TSI (Turbo-Stratified Injection)
    FSI (Fuel-Stratified-Injection)
    CCTA
    PZEV
    CBFA
    SULEV

    Different revisions of the TSI motor:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Arin@APR Click here to enlarge
    There are several hardware differences between the different versions. The main changes between the US versions is simply Emissions. US vs ROW also has emissions changes and some other hardware changes for more "headroom" for the higher output "b" version. CCTA = US Hardware - 200 HP
    CBFA = US Hardware, High Emissions - 200 HP
    CCZA = ROW Hardware, 200 HP
    CCZB = ROW Hardware, 210 HP




    The MKV and MKVI Share the SAME TSI motor:

    Quote, originally posted by John Y
    That's not a rumor, the engine in the 2010 GTI in the US is the same TSI motor that has been under the hood of US GTIs since mid-2008 model year.









    Quote, originally posted by Arin@APR
    Correct
    US MK5/MK6 2.0 TSI Engine
    CCTA
    CBFA
    CCT and CBF denote the engine's mechanical structure. IE, secondary injection (CBF) vs non secondary injection (CCT). A, the 4th letter, denotes the power output for the calibration, ie both rated in the us for 207ft-lb/200hp.
    ROW MK6 and A3 2.0 TSI Engines
    CCZA - A3
    CCZB - MK6CCZ denotes the european mechanical structure. A denotes the 200HP calibration. B denotes the 210HP calibration.





    Q: How strong are the rods in the TSI motor?
    A: For the FSI motor the industry standard for how strong the rods are considered to be 350 ft/lbs of torque. Nobody has yet puplicly reported bending any rods in the TSI motor, but the TSI rods are in fact stronger.

    Im not saying the rods can or cannot withstand any amount of power, just meerly sharing pix of the rods with the community (Thanks to Arin@APR):
    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Nobody has reported any bent rods yet as the TSI motor has only been around for about 3 years now and Turbo upgrades are just now picking up steam. Only time will tell the strength of the new rods.

    Link to discussion over the strength of the stock TSI Fueling as well as showing pictures comparing the FSI rods to the TSI rods:
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...njector-limits



    Potential TSI Issues:
    A few of the TSI cars are reporting failing Water Pumps (2010 GTIs and Audis from the sound of it):
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4832770
    There have also been a few reports of failing HPFPs:
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4231403


    Oil Change in a TSI Motor:
    Quote, originally posted by VeeRrrSick
    The good news is that you don't need to touch these covers on a TSI for an oil change. I did my first one at the first 1,000 mile mark just to train myself (and to see if there was any metallic content).
    The drain plug is accessible (points toward the rear), and the process is very painless.
    1. Put the warm car up on ramps or jack stands
    2. Remove the drain plug (19mm socket)
    3. Remove the oil cap to speed draining
    4. Once the flow slows significantly, loosen your oil filter slowly until you hear the flow increase again. Let it sit partly unscrewed and drain. (There's a breech pin that'll open if you haven't read about that--it's great.)
    5. When the flow slows down significantly, unscrew the filter the remainder of the way by hand and pick the filter straight up. There shouldn't be any mess.
    6. Lube and install the new filter.
    7. Replace drain plug (no new crush washer is necessary from what I've read... the washer's permanent on the drain plug).
    8. Fill 'er up. 5 qts. Start with 4.5, run it to get oil into the filter, and check. Add as needed.Enjoy the relatively painless process! I had a blast... and plan to do changes between dealer maintenance just for the peace of mind... and the relaxation. Click here to enlarge
    Modified by VeeRrrSick at 6:18 AM 5-21-2009









    If you want to mount up a DP that is made for the FSI/ TSI CCTA engine you will have to modify the flange to fit for the CBFA (cut out the 2 parts of the flange that are colored with the charpie):
    Click here to enlarge


    MORE Info on the difference between the FSI & TSI (CCTA and CBFA) from 42D Design:
    Taken from the 42D Design webpage:

    Yes. Our downpipe has been designed to fit both FSI and TSI motors. The downpipe flange has been machined to fit both turbochargers. Some TSI motors (CBFA) have 3 oxygen sensors instead of 2. To accommodate this configuration an extra oxygen sensor bung has been added.

    FSI and early TSI motors are equipped with two oxygen sensors. The first sensor is located before the first catalytic converter directly after the downpipe flange. The second is located after the second catalytic converter.

    CFBA and later TSI motors are equipped with three oxygen sensors. The first sensor is located on the turbo. The second is located before the second catalytic converter. The third is located after the second catalytic converter.

    If installing on a FSI or early TSI motor, plug the second oxygen sensor bung on our downpipe.

    If installing on a CFBA or later TSI motor, plug the first hole on our downpipe.
    The extra bung can be used for a wideband gauge and sensor at any time.



    Intake Manifold Removal/Cleaning valves:
    Here is a DIY link on how to remove the TSI Intake Manifold:
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...5#post72399725


    Noisepipe Delete:
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...semaker-Delete


    DIY Guide for installing a K04 on a TSI:
    http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...TSI&p=69635363


    I am in no way going to update this thread with every single mod that is out on the market but I will pop in here (hopefully) from time to time and post up some available parts:


    ECU Flash:
    APR
    REVO
    GIAC
    Unitronic
    Neuspeed

    BT Kits:
    BSH WOA kit (Phil has stated that their WOA kit will work and they are working on a proper tune for our cars)
    Eurojet BT kit is finalizing a tune and should be out sometime in 2011


    K04 kit:
    APR
    AWE
    CTS
    RAI


    Downpipe:
    AWE (CCTA AND CBFA)
    42D - Modular (CCTA AND CBFA)
    A&L (CCTA AND CBFA)
    USP (CCTA AND CBFA)
    Eurojet (CCTA AND CBFA)
    APR (CCTA AND CBFA)
    Ultimate Racing (CCTA and CBFA)
    EuroCustoms (CCTA and CBFA)
    Ultimate Racing (CCTA and CBFA)

    Catback exhaust:
    ALL of the available MKV FSI catback exhausts will properly mount up to the MKV TSI engine.
    The MKV FSI catback will obviously NOT mount up to the MKVI TSI

    Catch Cans:
    BSH Vent to Atmosphere Race can
    BSH Recirculation Catch Can
    BFI
    42D Design
    Forge
    The Forge Catchcan is more of a PCV upgrade than just a catch can.
    It reroutes all of the PCV gases through one line:
    Click here to enlarge
    Using this blockoff plate:
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    Intercooler:
    All of the available FSI intercoolers will properly mount up to the TSI engine
    BSH
    APR
    Eurojet
    S3 IC tested:

    Quote, originally posted by ryan mills
    ...The stock hoses work just fine too. You just have to cut the metal ends off, and clamp them down with 2 3/4" hose clamps. I might be imagining things, but my butt dyno notices a pretty large improvement in my 30-110mph runs.
    The price list is:
    9- 6mmX1.0X16mm bolts (HomeDepot) $3.30
    2-#36 2 3/4" ideal hose clamps (home Depot, plumbing section) $2.00
    About 6 beers (kroger) $8S3 intercooler (worldimpex.com) $320 +$18 shipping

    S3 install thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...61165
    AWE now sells a quality set of hoses so you don't have to cut your stock hoses

    Intake:
    BSH (Stage 1 is the ram air scoop, Stage 2 is the long tube that connects to turbo inlet)
    Carbonio
    P-flo
    Neuspeed
    VF

    Motor Mounts:
    NOTE: The passenger side mount has a slightly different design for the upper brackets in which you bolt your Windshield Washer fluid neck & Noisepipe to. The BSH Mounts have a NEW bracket to fix this, so double check before you order
    VF
    BSH (new TSI revision)

    Torque Mount Insert:
    NOTE: the 2008.5 TSI mount is the same as the FSI while the 2009 TSI has a different shaped insert than the FSI
    BSH Dogbone will fit the 2008.5 TSI
    VF Dogbone will fit the 2008.5 TSI
    Neuspeed has a 2009 TSI Insert
    Black Forest Industries (BFI) has torque arm insert (98a durometer) for 2009 TSI cars
    BSH has a TSI insert

    Boost tap:
    NOTE: you CANNOT tap into the vacuum source like the FSI motor you MUST purhchase one of the following pieces to properly tap into a vacuum source for a boost gauge
    BSH
    AWE
    42D Design
    Forge

    Discharge Pipe:
    Neuspeed
    AWE

    TB Pipe:
    BSH
    Neuspeed
    AWE
    Click here to enlarge

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    That is what I am talking about!!! Way to step up.

  3. #3
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That is what I am talking about!!! Way to step up.
    No prob man. Just look at the difference in rods from the FSI vs TSI. That should definitely tell you something about this motor.

    PS, you gotta Sticky these so they stay in the top of the opening file/thread.
    Click here to enlarge

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